INVESTIGATION BY THE GRAND JURY

HELD IN GRAND JURY ROOM NO. 1 FEDERAL COURTHOUSE, SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA, Friday, March 8, 1996, 1:56 p.m.

The indictment that resulted from this confusing questioning.

Go to the homepage and see how a federal prosecutor can quote this testimony many different ways to suit his needs:

The facts were the transcript of his client's testimony before the Grand Jury on March 8, 1996....The defendant testified he could not say for sure that there were any boxes of Shippers Dispatch's records on the premises at the time of fire....He also stated he did not know what was in the boxes that were in the attic.
- AUSA Daniel Linhardt, March 26, 1997.

In his grand jury testimony Sanders stated that there were some boxes of Shipper's Dispatch records in the attic.
- AUSA Daniel Linhardt, October 1, 1999.

THOMAS MICHAEL SANDERS was sworn and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY MR. LINHARDT:

FOREPERSON: Can you please state and spell your name for the record.
THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas Michael Sanders. The first name is T-h-o-m-a-s, middle name M-i-c-h-a-e-1, last name S-a-n-d-e-r-s.
FOREPERSON: Thank you. Have a seat.
(By Mr. Linhardt): Okay. Mr. Sanders, as you know we've worked out an arrangement with your attorney who - and the arrangement was that you would have use immunity, in other words, anything you say here today cannot be quoted against you in a court of law.
A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that; is that right?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And also you understand you're under oath so the answers to any questions that you answer must be truthful or you subject yourself to the penalties of perjury and you're aware of that, sir?
A. Yes, I do -
Q. Okay. You have an attorney - as you know your attorney cannot be here, if at any time you wish to consult with your attorney you are free to leave the room; do you understand that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And for the record, what is the name of your attorney, please?
A. My original attorney was Donald Frick, however he has some medical problems so it's Betty Joe Wessinger who is representing me right now.
Q. Can you spell her last name for the
A. W-e-s-s-i-n-g-e-r.
Q. Okay, for the court reporter.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, once upon a time, specifically in 1993 you used to live at a place called 8517 North Weyerhauser; is that right.
A. I believe that's the address.
Q. Okay. And is that Weyerhauser Street or Drive or --
A. Weyerhauser --
Q. Do you recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Okay. And that was in Portland, Oregon; is that right?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And there was a fire in that place, assuming that any address is correct, you told me that you're not sure what it is.
A. Yes.
Q. And that fire was on July 8, 1993; is that right.
A. I'll take your word on the exact date, but that's --
Q. Okay. There was only one fire there, right?
A. Right, there was only one fire.
Q. Okay.
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. And at the time there were two people there; is that right, during when the fire started?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was who?
A. That was myself and Genevieve Rich.
Q. And okay. And that's R-i-c-h for Rich?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And how did the fire start?
A. We were both outside. It was late afternoon and we were both outside having a drink watching a Little League ball game across the street or the ending of one. And she was making tacos for the evening meal. So she went back in the house, left me outside to turn the stove on under a skillet full of grease. And she did so and then came back outside. And by the time she came out the door there were flames lurking out the window, the kitchen window.
Q. Okay.
A. I went inside, looked around the corner, saw the flames. I picked up the phone, it was right there on the corner, and I just got through to 911 when the phone went out. The flames were coming up over my head so I went back outside. And apparently a neighbor had called the fire department.
Q. And they came and eventually put the fire out?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe the damage.
A. The damage was totaled to the contents as far as fire and smoke damage. I was not able to recover anything from the house. The structure I was told by the fire investigator that as long as the walls were standing, the structure was not a total loss.
Q. How bad was everything burned inside?
A. Everything in the front of the house was totally gone.
Q. And what rooms were those?
A. That was the kitchen, the living room and a couple of closets.
Q. Okay. And there were also two bedrooms?
A. Yes, there were three bedrooms.
Q. And what was -- was there fire damage in those?
A. There was mostly smoke damage.
Q. Okay. And then there was an attic.
A. And heat damage, rather.
Q. And heath damage. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. And there was an attic as well?
A. Yes, a very large attic.
Q. And what about the damage up there?
A. I never saw the attic.
Q. Okay. Now, what was your job at the time?
A. Well, my job -- I had several jobs. I was finishing a master's degree at the University of Idaho. And I was also job hunting.
Q. Was it computer something or other?
A. Yeah, in electrical engineering, yes, mm-hmm.
Q. Okay.
A. And I was living in a house owned by the corporation and I was also doing -- I had set up their computer system and I had a ongoing maintenance --
Q. When you say "corporation," what corporation are you talking about.
A. Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. Okay. MR. LINHARDT: Reporter said here, "I'm sorry, what was that?"
A. Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. And go ahead, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. THE WITNESS: That's -- excuse me.
A. It's all right.
Q. And you were living in the house that Shipper's Dispatch owned; is that right?
A. Yes, rented.
Q. Rented, okay.
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, were there some of the boxes of documents of Shipper's Dispatch in the structure?
A. I have stated before, I can't think of any particular ones, except some computers disks and records.
Q. What records you talking of?
A. I later saw a photograph where there is a computer printout, a picture of one. And the only reason that would be in the house would be -- I recognize the type of thing as being an ongoing trip log from Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. Now, Shipper's Dispatch is what, owned or managed by your brother, Jim Sanders?
A. I don't know who owns it or who manages it.
Q. Well, is he -- is your brother Jim Sanders involved with it?
A. Yes.
Q. In what way?
A. I don't know the technical aspect of it.
Q. So, what documents from Shipper's Dispatch -- or how-- let's -- let me back up for a second. Was there any boxes of records that were of Shipper's Dispatch records that were in the property?
A. I can't say for sure whether there were or not. I could say I was told there were, and I seen a photograph, two different items appeared to be records from Shippers Dispatch.
Q. Well, wait a second. You were living there, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any boxes in some of the rooms?
A. No, up in the attic.
Q. Oh, they were in the attic?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So there were no boxes -- definitely what you can say, is there were no boxes of Shipper's Dispatch records downstairs?
A. Not in my living area, no.
Q. In any of the -- or any of the bedrooms?
A. No.
Q. No -- there were no boxes or no what? In other words, there was -- am I correct when I say that there were no boxes of Shipper's Dispatch records in any of the bedrooms downstairs?
A. Well, I can say there wasn't one in the bedroom we lived in or the other bedroom. And this other bedroom I can't say for sure.
Q. You never went in there?
A. Yes, I was in there quite often.
Q. Okay. Well, were there any boxes of records in there?
A. I had several boxes on the floor.
Q. Okay. Several of your boxes. Were there any -- were there any boxes in the other bedrooms?
A. Not any one that I can specifically state.
Q. Wait a second. Let me just back up to see if we can -- because I'm kind of a little confused here, which is a state that I'm -- as the grand jury knows I'm in fairly often.
Q. In two bedrooms you were living -- one for you and one for Ms. Rich?
A. No, we shared the same bedroom.
Q. Oh, you shared the same bedroom, okay. So, were there any boxes in that bedroom, period?
A. No, there wasn't, no.
Q. Okay. Now, there's a second bedroom.
A. Right.
Q. And what's that used for? What was the that used for?
A. The middle bedroom I had my computer set up in there.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. And there were no boxes of records in that room?
A. There were many boxes. I can't state for sure if any one -- I can't sit here and say with certainty that one of them did not contain records.
Q. But if there were boxes than rather -- oh, it was only one box?
A. No. There was several boxes.
Q. Well, what was in them?
A. I had about three boxes of my personal equipment -- my personal records.
Q. Okay. And then how many other boxes of records were there?
A. I don't know any number.
Q. One, a hundred?
A. Not a hundred. There were maybe -- maybe five or six.
Q. Five or six boxes of records down there.
A. Well, I mean, you said "boxes." I can't picture what was in that room at this late date. I can picture where my things were. It was just -- we had a stack of boxes on the corner. And the other corner was my computer.
Q. And in this third bedroom, what was in there?
A. There was just a bed.
Q. So no records at all?
A. No records at all in there, no.
Q. Okay. So the only place there were records of any kind is that middle bedroom with your computer; is that right?
A. Well --
Q. There were boxes, other than the attic which we'll talk about in a --
A. No, right, right, right, yeah.
Q. Okay.
A. That would have been the only other place they could have been.
Q. Okay. Now, in the attic, what was in the attic?
A. In the attic was boxes full of everything, my stuff, there was boxes.
Q. Lots of boxes?
A. Lots of boxes, right.
Q. And were there boxes of records up there as far as you know.
A. Again, I can't say that any particular one.
Q. But there were a whole lot of boxes which had paper in them?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Okay. You don't know what was in the boxes?
A. No. Not all the boxes. I know what was in the boxes I put up there.
Q. But you don't know what was in the other boxes?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, after the fire or because of fire, were any of those records damaged?
A. I presume everything in the attic was damaged.
Q. Why do you presume that?
A. Because I never saw it again.
Q. Okay. You never saw all the boxes that were up in the attic?
A. No.
Q. Okay. How about the boxes that were in the bedroom?
A. When I went back, I believe it was the next day, the fireman had pulled -- before the house was boarded up, the fireman I believe on the night of the fire told me they had thrown a tarp in one corner of the bedroom to cover up whatever was on the floor. So I went in, picked up the tarp, and there were my boxes I had a box of books and I had a box of personal files. And they were smoke damaged, but they weren't burned. They were still useable. They were records I've accumulated over many years so I took those boxes.
Q. And what else was in -- what other boxes of records were still there?
A. I didn't see any others.
Q. So the only box that were left when you came back were those two boxes?
A. I'm not saying the only two boxes. The only two boxes I picked up were those two boxes.
Q. So you only picked up two boxes?
A. Right.
Q. What about --
A. Possibly three, I'm not sure.
Q. Possibly three, and what other boxes -- would you leave these boxes in there? When you left that day, you said you came back the next day.
A. Right.
Q. When you came back did you leave any boxes -- and cleaned out the three boxes we just talked about, did you leave any boxes sitting in the room?
A. It's been so long I don't recall what else was in there because everything else in the room was heat and smoke damaged.
Q. So, what you're saying is that what you took was the only boxes that were still in one piece, the rest had been damaged by heat or smoke damage?
A. I just took the ones I recognized as being mine.
Q. And you didn't care about the other ones?
A. It's not a matter of -- I don't understand your question.
Q. You didn't want to make sure the other ones were going to be safe and put them someplace?
A. I don't recall what -- I just took the -- I'm just saying I took the boxes of my records that next day.
Q. And what about the other records that were there?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You just left them?
A. Yes, I just took what -- I didn't want to spend too time in the house. I just took my records and went.
Q. Were those -- were they damaged, the other records?
A. I don't recall.
Q. They were in the same room with yours, you don't remember whether they were damaged and yours weren't?
A. No, no, I don't. I can think -- if they weren't damaged I would have checked them. But I just checked the ones I saw were covered by the tarp. They were my records.
Q. So what -- how many boxes were left?
A. I don't recall.
Q. One, a hundred?
A. I don't recall.
Q. No recollection at all?
A. No.
Q. There was a computer?
A. Yes.
Q. How many computers were in the building?
A. One.
Q. And that was yours?
A. It was -- it was actually -- I had custody of it. It belonged to the -- it was bought by Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. And what was on it?
A. What was on it?
Q. Yes.
A. A number of things.
Q. Such as?
A. I mean, I had a disk full of software on it.
Q. Just your material?
A. No.
Q. What else was on it?
A. It all came from the office. I had Paradox, which was the database that was used at that time for the computer system at Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. Was there any Shipper's Dispatch information on it?
A. I'm sure there was because I did development on there.
Q. And how much did you put on there?
A. I can't recall how much. It was incidental.
Q. Just minor, in other words?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. So not much would be a fair characterization?
A. Right.
Q. So that in terms of Shipper's Dispatch records that had been put on the computer, as of the time of this fire, there weren't a whole lot; would that be a fair statement?
A. Well, the way the computer worked I would -- when I was working on the office system, I would dial up on the modem with the computer and log into that network. And in the process of doing so, information transfers inside the machine, so I can't say for sure what -- how much was actually on there.
Q. Did you put much on the machine?
A. Did I personally --
Q. Yes.
A. -- input much data?
Q. Right, Shipper's Dispatch data onto the machine?
A. For test purposes. There was no massive amount of data that -- answering.
Q. Do you know if anybody else put any on?
A. On that machine?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I was the only one that ever operated that machine.
Q. So the machine had very little on it that you put on or that anyone else putted on of Shipper's Dispatch material.
A. Well, I don't know what --
Q. I mean you said --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- you put very little on.
A. Right.
Q. No one else put anything on, that sounds to me like there's almost nothing on there. If I'm wrong, please explain to me how I'm wrong.
A. Well, I don't --
Q. You don't what?
A. I don't understand the way you're asking that question.
Q. Okay. I've asked you, was there was very much in the way of Shipper's Dispatch --
A. How much is very much data?
Q. You told me you put very little data on.
A. Well, how much is --
Q. How much is very little? That's your term.
A. I don't know. I mean --
Q. You don't know what -- how much the term is that you're using?
A. Well, I can tell you that at the office there was a massive amount of data that was on the disks that was periodically backed up.
Q. But on the --
A. I did not maintain a permanent --
Q. Was everything -- okay, let me just was everything on your machine backed up in the office?
A. No, not everything on that machine. Certain things were.
Q. What wasn't?
A. What wasn't on my machine --
Q. mm-hmm.
A. -- that was on the office machine?
Q. No, what was not -- what data on your machine was not backed up on the office machine?
A. Oh, I had no data on mine that would have been backed up on the office, it would have been the other way around.
Q. Okay. So that anything that was on your machine --
A. With the exception of my --
Q. --.that was also on the office should your machine have been totally destroyed, there was no loss to the office, they still had it on their own stuff; is that right?
A. Unless it was something they were looking for that they no longer had, I can't -- again, I can't think of any one particular.
Q. But you said you didn't put much on the machine. What do you mean by "not much"?
A. I mean, it wasn't used continuously in the data inputting process. That was all.
Q. How many hours did you use?
A. How many hours did I use?
Q. Um-hmm, yeah. If you didn't put much on --
A. Oh, I couldn't I can't --
Q. Well, how much what do you mean by that?
A. I can't recall how many hours I spent on it. I did so many different things on that machine that I --
Q. What else did you do on the machine?
A. My master thesis.
Q. Okay. That was the major thing on the machine, wasn't it?
A. That wasn't the major thing. That was a very small part of it.
Q. What was the major thing on the machine?
A. Can you be more specific.
Q. Now, what was the major thing -- it was your machine, what was the major -- you said the master thesis was not the major thing.
A. No.
Q. What was the major thing on the machine then?
A. Well, I had to program -- I had programs I had developed for Shipper's Dispatch on there.
Q. But not --
A. I also had them on disk.
Q. Okay. So those were safe, I assume?
A. If I knew what you were the point you're trying to make --
Q. I'm trying to find out
A. -- that's what -- maybe I could answer your question. But you're asking questions about how much is little, how much is much, how much is this. And if you would tell me what you're reaching, what you're pointing to, I can tell you --
Q. I'm trying to find out how much --
A. -- if that's true or not.
Q. I'm trying to find out how much was --
A. Well
Q. How much data, Shipper's Dispatch data, was entered into the machine. Well, let's -- let me try another thing. Was the machine damaged at all.
A. Oh, it was totally destroyed.
Q. By that you mean what, melted down?
A. Yes.
Q. That was the outside, the inside, what?
A. I didn't look inside. The outside was melted down. And --
Q. So the outside was sorted of a glob of --
A. Yes.
Q. -- gook?

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Q. What happened to the computer?
A. I gave the owner of the house permission to dispose of everything that was left in the house as he saw fit.
Q. Okay. Now did -- well, would that include the records of Shipper's Dispatch?
A. Anything that was in the house that was -- everything inside was destroyed. I took what was not destroyed except my wallet. Luckily I found it in my pants on the bed the next day.
Q. So your testimony is if you didn't take it out, the reason you didn't take it out was because it was destroyed?
A. I'm saying I didn't take anything out. And then I --
Q. Well, you said you took two or three boxes.
A. Everything -- I assumed everything was destroyed. Yes.
Q. You said two or three boxes of stuff?
A. Yes. Yes, they were salvageable.
Q. What about your clothing?
A. Clothing was -- nothing was salvaged.
Q. Nothing was salvaged on the clothing?
A. Nothing. Nothing.
Q. So that was all destroyed and you left it?
A. Except my wallet which I found on the blue jeans that were on the bed. I took it out and it aired out after a few days. But everything else was too smoke damaged.
Q. Okay. And everything in the attic as best you could see
A. I never saw the attic. I never went up there. [sic] I assumed it was -- MR. LINHARDT: Oh, I'm poaching your lines. I apologize.
A. I assumed it was --
Q. So all those boxes that were up in the attic --
A. Well, I saw a lot of them out in the front yard in another picture, but that's -- I couldn't tell where they came from.
Q. Now, so let me just see if I have this right. Did you take -- you took three boxes of your stuff out of the middle bedroom?
A. Well, maybe three, I'm not sure of the exact --
Q. Maybe two, maybe three?
A. Yeah.
Q. Three at most?
A. Right.
Q. Maybe two. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Every -- the reason you didn't take the other stuff as now I understand it is because the other stuff was destroyed?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And it was destroyed by fire or by smoke?
A. Fire, smoke, heat, whatever.
Q. So -- but it was -- they were just ruined by the fire -- they were actually burned, I mean, opposed to burned with a match, flame-type destroyed?
A. No, they were discolored by heat and smoke. And they had that smoke smell that you'd never get out.
Q. But if there was a document, would it make any difference to you? I mean, wouldn't you care to want to save the document?
A. Well, I saved -- that's what I did.
Q. You saved yours?
A. Yes, everything else was --
Q. And you didn't save the other ones?
A. Everything else was damaged. If it was --
Q. Now by damage --
A. I took --
Q. -- what do you mean by damage, that's what I'm trying to find out here.
A. Not recognizable, burnt.
Q. Oh, okay. Fine.
A. Yeah.
Q. What kind of car, did you have a car at the time?
A. We had two cars there.
Q. What kind of cars were they?
A. A 1991 Pontiac Sunbird and a 1988 Ford Festiva. The Ford Festiva belonged to Shipper's Dispatch.
Q. And the Pontiac, that was yours?
A. Yes.
Q. That was a white car?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you load the records into that? That was the car you used to load the records into?
A. I think I came back in that car. It would have been one or the other.
Q. Okay. That was the next day that you did the loading?
A. It may have been the other car because I took the Ford in. I was leaving for Florida in just a couple of weeks so I took the Pontiac in as soon as possible. It had to be repainted. So I may have been in the other car. But being the next day, it was probably the Pontiac.
Q. Probably the Pontiac. Okay. And did you load the records by yourself or did anybody help you?
A. I recall that when I went out the next morning my brother met me out there. We went through the house together and I took the - I can't recall exactly, but I believe I took them out by myself.
Q. Okay. And the firemen, they were all gone by the time
A. Oh, they were gone the night before.
Q. Okay. And so they didn't help you load any records out or anything?
A. No. No, I don't recall seeing any firemen except a -
Q. When you showed up to load the records of the -
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Now do you remember being interviewed by Special Agent Robert Nino of the FBI down in Texas?
A. I don't remember the name. There were
Q. It was a Special Agent, though, you remember him?
A. I don't think that was the name. It was a
Q. There was also a Lawrence Danielson?
A. That's the one, right.
Q. Okay. There were two guys, actually?
A. Right. Yeah. Danielson didn't do all the talking.
Q. Okay. And do you remember telling him that there were some boxes of business records from your brother's business which was stored in the attic?
A. I told him that I believe there were, but that I didn't - I could not give one specific, any single specific instance of a box of exactly what was in it.
Q. Okay. But you
A. I never said that there was one specific box. I never said
Q. No, you said some boxes of business records of your brother's business that was stored in the attic?
A. That were probably - right.
Q. And that was a true statement; is that correct?
A. Well, that's what I believe to be true.
Q. But you - okay.
A. Probably because Shipper's Dispatch had access to the house and the attic, so that's - and I was told there were records there so I presume there are. Now, I can't - like I told him, I think that was taken the wrong way. I can't think of any single specific - I can't say there was a box in this corner with so and so in it, but
Q. But you know when you'd go to the attic, because you said some of your own stuff was there.
A. Very seldom. Very seldom. I put my stuff up there when I first moved in. And I very seldom went up there again.
Q. But there were boxes of stuff up there?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time of the fire?
A. Right.
Q. And remember telling that the firemen removed everything from the attic and put it in the front yard and you said there's nothing salvageable from the attic?
A. No, I said I assumed they did because I never saw it again.
Q. Okay.
A. I have no idea what happened to what was in the attic because they - the next time I went to the house right after I had taken my wallet and my personal records out, the last time - the next time I went back, the house was totally boarded up by the owner or the insurance company or whatever.
MR. LINHARDT: Okay. Any questions by any members of the Grand Jury? If not, if we could just take a break for about two minutes and we'll be back. If there's nothing else, we'll take you guys down to do the Grand Jury returns.
(Whereupon, at 2:20 p.m., the examination was concluded.)

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